Proposed 2015 Classes

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Luke
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by Luke »

GG,

I'm trying a long shot here ... plus helping to be part of the solution and not saying others aren't but believe my 2 posts (page 1) helped in understanding whats going on in this grouping.
  • B. Historic Saloon - Vintage Sports - Group 5 Sports Cars ~ and Registered (car/owner) Scratch-built Cars.
Its very notable the main issue with the FRC 2015 suggestions is the 50, 60 & 70s Slotcar Classes and maybe the setting-up Scratch-built Cars.

Surely, your 2 points (twofold) and that's it seems to be easier said than done ... in helping to make things (car set-up/racing) enjoyable for all.

Here's the long shot I am thinking about:

There's a wide range of named cars for a wide range of Brands/Chassis type cars ... which seems to be causing this debatable topic - so to make a long story short here's what I thought of during the day.

How about turning the list of named cars for such wide range of Brands/Chassis cars to a list of Chassis/Brand type cars ..?

For example:
  • Historic Saloon - Scalextric Chassis 'with step down type magnets' cars only ...
    Vintage Sports - Sebring Chassis 'with the stock type magnets' cars only ...
    G5 Sports Cars - and maybe keep this class - as is ...
Hope I explained myself well and sure you will agree that something's gotta give and hope no one gets indigestion while digesting :/

Luke
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gordon
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by gordon »

Steve and Arden, what would your suggestions be for scratch-built HS (and VS) cars to ensure that they are competitive yet not advantageous?
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gordon
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by gordon »

I only saw Luke's post after I submitted the above post. Luke, it's an interesting angle, however that suggestion eliminates a lot of cars already in FRC drivers' hands. It also eliminates scratch-built cars altogether. I prefer a policy of inclusion of as many cars/brands as possible so I sadly have tho say that I would not support your suggestion.
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gordon
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by gordon »

Guys,

For those of you who have raced in G5SC, have you noticed any variation in the Magnet Marshal (MM) readings from one event to another, assuming you made no changes to your cars? And on race night, have your cars MM readings changed from race to race? I haven't seen any changes in all the cars we've ever checked on race night, once no change was made which can affect downforce. And it's very easy and quick to adjust the downforce using either different tyres and/or wafer magnets. Very easy. Once set, you can forget about downforce and focus on other things like gearing and body float, for example. If you change motor or tyres, it's simple to add or remove a wafer magnet to get downforce where it needs to be. In fact, for those of us who call ourselves "tuners", tuning the magnets is another area where we can apply our skills. Right now I see guys (myself included) at FRC spending a great deal of time tuning their cars, trying different settings till they are happy or run out of time, so don't tell me that the MM requirement is going to make us have to spend time tuning - we're already doing that at every event.

All the MM is there for is to ensure that we have an even playing field where downforce is concerned. Are any of you afraid of this? Are you worried that you can't get an advantage by having more downforce than your competitors? I'm not. In fact I enjoy close competition where cars are very equal in performance and I would like to believe that we all feel the same. Downforce is a simple thing to check and we've seen that it works very well for G5SC. The sorted cars in that class are now very close.

I believe we should at least give it a try, let everyone get their cars competitive over a few events and see how it goes. If necessary, we can separate the "MM" classes to race on different nights, although, as I already said, tuning your downforce on race night won't take much time at all.

Finally, in case you did not notice, I have taken into consideration scratch built cars in all cases. Until our last event, no one took these seriously, but when Steve produced a legitimate one (based on current rules) which got pole on its first outing, suddenly this became a potential problem/threat to the status quo. My suggestions will allow for enterprising guys like Steve to build cars from scratch which will be competitive but not have an advantage over mass-produced cars.

So, here are my slightly adjusted proposed 2015 HS class regulations again, highlighting the things that will need to be checked:
  • Body: See Eligable Cars below. Body must comply with General item 2. Windows may not be tinted - interior must be visible. Scratch-built Cars: Fender flares may be added to the standard unflared body.
  • Chassis: Standard for the particular model. Not applicable for scratch-built cars.
  • Minimum Ground Clearance: 1.0 mm / 0.040".
  • Interior: Full interior as standard for the particular model, however this may be altered if necessary, but only to the extent required to install digital chip. Must comply with General item 3.
  • Digital Chip: Scalextric brand only.
  • Motor: 20,000 RPM or lower, based on manufacturer's specifications.
  • Gearing: Standard for the particular model Scratch-built Cars: Must be a 3:1 ratio.
  • Motor Pod (where applicable): Free.
  • Magnets: Must be located in the standard position(s). Cannot protrude below chassis. Maximum Magnet Marshal downforce of 180 gms (105% = 189 gms). Stacking allowed. Scratch-built Cars: Magnet(s) must be in a single location on the chassis.
  • Wheels: Standard for the particular model Scratch-built Cars: Maximum width of 0.25 in (6.35 mm).
  • Axles: Standard for the particular model. Tyres may not extend beyond body when viewed from top of car. Scratch-built Cars: Track maximum of 2 in (51 mm)..
  • Tyres: Free.
  • Guide Flag: Free.
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by arden100 »

Gordon,

I am not trying to be difficult. I am just looking at making the rules simple and easy for new comers as well as competitive.
I know you really enjoy those classes and I believe most of us do, but what I have noticed is the cars are all getting faster and faster with the new rules being implemented. We are all trying to get faster which is the purpose of racing using the rules, however the rules are not written to put a ceiling on the speed or time.

Gordon what time do you think a VS and HS should be doing?

I believe VS and GS5 times are very similar.

I will like to see all the cars competitive, but that is really up to the individuals and the work they put into their cars.
The points that really changes the times are 1. Motor RPM, 2. Gearing, 3. Tyres. This should be stock in VS ans HS. I really don't see the room for scratch built in these classes. If you have it as a stock class you may get 1 or 2 racers to join the class. If you have some mods you half close the door and if you allow scratch build you close the door. A newbie will not be encouraged to go this way unless they are real enthusiast. Scratch build will be the winning formula, but I did not know that it was legal. I thought that would be bending the rules just as I did in rally with my MB motor.

I have been looking for a car to race in historic and after trying a few cars I came straight back to the escort. I hate to race the same car as others, but sometimes you have no other choice.

I will really like to see easier mods and mods that will put ceiling on fast times.

I hope this helps.


Arden
Luke
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by Luke »

I kind of had a feeling you were going to say something like that Gordon because I thought so myself (afterwards) and in my words - that many cars will no longer be raced.

So I fully understand your reasoning/choice and thanks for considering my idea (long shot that it was) all the same.

See you at the circuit,

Luke
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by steveaca »

Hi Gordon,
I'd be willing to try your proposal for the HS cars. Maybe we could do it on a trial basis for , say, 3 months ? I note that you did not specify magnets and that stacking is allowed. We would need a bit more clarification on that.
As far as scratch-built cars go, I think that the proposed reg. is fair. I'd want to check the with of Scaley Escort rims (the most common car in this class) to see whether the 6.35 mm rim width limit for the scratch-build build would not put it at a disadvantage.
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gordon
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by gordon »

In response to Arden's post above:

Simple and easy for newcomers - See comments below.
Competitive - With cars having motor and downforce limited I bet all cars will be more competitive.
Cars getting faster and faster - These proposels will slow them down.
No ceiling on speed or lap time - See above comment.
Points that affect times are (1) motor, (2) gearing, (3) Tyres - AND (4) Magnets
This should be stock in HS and VS - What's a stock magnet? How much downforce does it provide? Are all cars configured with the same magnets? Are all identically-sized magnets the same downforce?
What times should they be doing? - HS 7 sec, VS 6 sec.
I really don't see the room for scratch built in these classes - With my proposed regulations scratch-built cars will fit right in.
If you have it as a stock class you may get 1 or 2 racers to join the class - A stock car will have just about the downforce I have proposed and will have a motor that's listed as 18K but will usually run at just over 20K.
If you have some mods you half close the door - My proposal requires standard body, chassis, interior, gearing, magnet location, wheels, axles. The only areas that are not standard are digital chip (it has to be added to race on a digital track), ground clearance (every standard car will pass this), motor (the standard motor will be competitive), magnet(s) must be in the standard position(s) and the maximum downforce allowed will likely be very close to that of a standard car, tyres are free (no change from current regs) and guide flag is free (this is very unlikely to make a performance difference).
If you allow scratch build you close the door - Why? The only differences to the standard regulations are chassis and interior (which must still comply with the driver figure requirement).
A newbie will not be encouraged to go this way unless they are real enthusiast - We have allowed scratch-built cars for years and so far have seen just three - my Triumph, my Subaru and Steve's Nissan, and that's with far more open scratch-built rules than those I'm proposing. How many people will actually build a scratch-built car when there really is no advantage over a properly prepared standard car?
Scratch build will be the winning formula - Why? I don't think they will be more competitive than a well-sorted standard car.
But I did not know that it was legal - Been legal for years.
I have been looking for a car to race in historic and after trying a few cars I came straight back to the escort. I hate to race the same car as others, but sometimes you have no other choice - My point exactly. Thanks for endorsing my proposals with yet another reason why they make sense.
I will really like to see easier mods and mods that will put ceiling on fast times - The only mods that MAY be required would be to ensure that the motor spec does not exceed max allowed RPM and that the car is close to the downforce limit without exceeding it. You have an option for changing tyres but its not a requirement. I guarantee that lap times will go up with the downdorce and motor RPM limits suggested.

Gordon
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gordon
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by gordon »

OK, after discussions with various drivers and taking into account all the comments here, following are my revised thoughts on our HS and VS class regulation changes for 2015.

First of all, because these are considered stock classes, we probably should not allow scratch-built cars since they can never be considered stock cars. They're one-offs and unique. We can look at which classes they should be eligible for. My immediate thoughts are Modified Production, Rally and our open classes, American Muscle, GT and LMP.

Coming back to HS and VS, here's my mandate for which I would like suggestions from you all that help us accomplish it:
  1. To produce closer, more competitive racing than we currently have, using any car (regardless of manufacturer) where the body conforms to the class.
  2. Slow HS cars to a 7 sec lap time bracket and VS to a 6 sec lap time bracket.
Let's hear some practical suggestions to help accomplish these and please do not throw out the possibility of including a downforce limit as part of your suggestions. We see how this makes our IROC and G5SC cars provide closer racing.
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Re: Proposed 2015 Classes

Post by gordon »

I've re-worded part of the above to clarify.
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