Gordon,
Looking at the Mod Prod car classifications I really believe we need to look at it a little closer. After our chat on the Z4 i really found it strange on the classification of some cars and where they race. I understand the concept and like the idea, but I will like to see it remain as a production and not so called mod prod class since there are so many grey areas or identify the cars that are qualified to race in this class.
Production cars can be any car in this era, the times have changed.
When we spoke even the Audi TT race in GT though it is a regular production car. This made it hard to believe the Capri is a non GT car. So I decided to look it up and it clearly states it races in Cat5, however I checked on Wikipedia and it points it to be more a GT car. The Mustang in the 80's is considered a GT car as well. I was going to build a Camaro, but I really think it is not what you intended for the class, especially since we are trying to get the cars more realistic with regards to speed.
I believe the cars in this class should be based on saloon four door cars. You can also allow the 2dr versions, but it must be clearly regarded as a passenger car.
Also if you car poll for the Caution vs the full stop during races or start a discussion.
Food for thought.
Arden
Mod Prod
Re: Mod Prod
Arden,
I largely agree with you on this one. The intent of the Modified Production class is a class for cars that are similar to what are referred to as "touring cars" in racing, as in the British or European Touring Car Championship classes. I believe they are called sedan cars in the US (see the following for info on this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna ... ssociation).
Part of the problem comes up with cars of different eras. For example, Capris raced from the late '60s to the early '80s. At their peak, the Zakspeed Capris raced in FIA Group 5 category ('76-'82). Group 5 was initially for "Special Touring Cars" ('66-'69) then was changed to "Sports Cars" ('70-75, our old G5SC class) and eventually changed to "Special Production Cars" ('76-'82). All this info is available here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_5_(racing)
Therefore, back in their day, the Capris were touring/production cars as far as racing was concerned.
Here is a good article about touring car racing in the real world and how it differentiates itself from GT racing (pay special attention to the section titled "Differences between touring cars and sports cars"):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_car_racing
To keep things simple, I feel that we simply have to either have an inclusion or exclusion list for our Mod Prod class. In fact, we currently have an indirect exclusion list because the rules say "non-GT" and we actually have a GT list below our Restricted GT class regs.
I largely agree with you on this one. The intent of the Modified Production class is a class for cars that are similar to what are referred to as "touring cars" in racing, as in the British or European Touring Car Championship classes. I believe they are called sedan cars in the US (see the following for info on this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna ... ssociation).
Part of the problem comes up with cars of different eras. For example, Capris raced from the late '60s to the early '80s. At their peak, the Zakspeed Capris raced in FIA Group 5 category ('76-'82). Group 5 was initially for "Special Touring Cars" ('66-'69) then was changed to "Sports Cars" ('70-75, our old G5SC class) and eventually changed to "Special Production Cars" ('76-'82). All this info is available here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_5_(racing)
Therefore, back in their day, the Capris were touring/production cars as far as racing was concerned.
Here is a good article about touring car racing in the real world and how it differentiates itself from GT racing (pay special attention to the section titled "Differences between touring cars and sports cars"):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_car_racing
To keep things simple, I feel that we simply have to either have an inclusion or exclusion list for our Mod Prod class. In fact, we currently have an indirect exclusion list because the rules say "non-GT" and we actually have a GT list below our Restricted GT class regs.
Re: Mod Prod
Gordon,
The questions are will the class continue to have grey areas and Is it really saloon or sedan cars used as intended?
If we use "4dr production passenger Sedan or 2 dr versions" You have cleared up the non gt aspect we are looking at and will most definitely get the class more realistic both in speed and what you wanted in terms of cars.
It will be great to have this class since there are so many cars, BMW, Opel Mercedes etc.
It will be great to hear Steve take on this.
Arden
The questions are will the class continue to have grey areas and Is it really saloon or sedan cars used as intended?
If we use "4dr production passenger Sedan or 2 dr versions" You have cleared up the non gt aspect we are looking at and will most definitely get the class more realistic both in speed and what you wanted in terms of cars.
It will be great to have this class since there are so many cars, BMW, Opel Mercedes etc.
It will be great to hear Steve take on this.
Arden
Re: Mod Prod
Before doing so Arden, everyone should read the section titled Stewards in our General Competition Regulations. The solution may already be there and maybe everyone just needs to be reminded.arden100 wrote: Also if you car poll for the Caution vs the full stop during races or start a discussion.
Re: Mod Prod
Gordon,
I am beating the door since Steve is silent. LOL.
Group GT3 allows for a wide variety of car types to be homologated with almost no limit on engine sizes and configurations or chassis construction or layout. GT3 cars must be based on production road car models in mass production.
To qualify, body must be based on a non-GT car that is constructed principally for retail sale to consumers for their personal use and to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible), but may be modified by the addition of fender flares/extensions, wings and spoilers. Examples of non-eligible GT cars are Porsche 911/997, any Ferrari or Lamborghini and most cars with "GT" in their names
After looking at this GT3 classification our mod prod class it looks as it is a perfect fit, since we allow addition of fender flares/extensions, wings and spoilers. I understand the idea of the Porsche etc.' however the Z4' Audi TT and Boxster should be allowed based on its mass production. These are daily drivers.
https://www.simraceway.com/cars/bmw-z4_ ... ?locale=en
Let get some more responses and not just views.
Arden
I am beating the door since Steve is silent. LOL.
Group GT3 allows for a wide variety of car types to be homologated with almost no limit on engine sizes and configurations or chassis construction or layout. GT3 cars must be based on production road car models in mass production.
To qualify, body must be based on a non-GT car that is constructed principally for retail sale to consumers for their personal use and to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible), but may be modified by the addition of fender flares/extensions, wings and spoilers. Examples of non-eligible GT cars are Porsche 911/997, any Ferrari or Lamborghini and most cars with "GT" in their names
After looking at this GT3 classification our mod prod class it looks as it is a perfect fit, since we allow addition of fender flares/extensions, wings and spoilers. I understand the idea of the Porsche etc.' however the Z4' Audi TT and Boxster should be allowed based on its mass production. These are daily drivers.
https://www.simraceway.com/cars/bmw-z4_ ... ?locale=en
Let get some more responses and not just views.
Arden
Re: Mod Prod
Hi guys i really do learn a lot about the real car racing world as well as racing history a lot of this car classification detail is new to me. Slot car racing is really a car enthusiast sport. So here is where i am with my build , as it is one of my passions , i will prep 2 capris, 2 bmws and 2 subarus , in this way i will be able to test my cars against each other , and see which set up works best . Thanks again for giving me an opportunity to have fun.
Re: Mod Prod
Hi all,
I'm now seeing this thread and it certainly looks like food for thought. My take is that the intention of the class was for modified road cars and I like the stipulation of these cars being 'non-GT'. My suggestion would be that the cars also be based on cars having a seating capacity of at least 4 . I know that this would eliminate some cars like the BMW Z3 and Z4 as well as the Audi TT but in real life, as much as these cars are considered road going and are, in many cases, daily drivers, the fact remains that they are inherently better performing than their 4-seat brethren due to their lower weights and centres of gravity. I think that this would also apply in the slot car arena. There are some cars which are 4 seaters which would be eliminated due to their also falling into the GT category. Cars that come to mind are the Porsche 911 , Ferrari 575 Maranello and Maserati Trofeo. As regards cars like the Capri and Mustang, I believe that these should be allowed. These were both based on production 4 seat saloons, the Capri on the Escort platform and the Mustang on the Falcon.
(If this thinking is followed through, maybe we should also limit the Historic Saloon class to cars of seating capacity of at least 4. This would not elinate any of the regularly raced cars in the class but would eliminate true 2-seat sports cars such as the MGB).
Steve
I'm now seeing this thread and it certainly looks like food for thought. My take is that the intention of the class was for modified road cars and I like the stipulation of these cars being 'non-GT'. My suggestion would be that the cars also be based on cars having a seating capacity of at least 4 . I know that this would eliminate some cars like the BMW Z3 and Z4 as well as the Audi TT but in real life, as much as these cars are considered road going and are, in many cases, daily drivers, the fact remains that they are inherently better performing than their 4-seat brethren due to their lower weights and centres of gravity. I think that this would also apply in the slot car arena. There are some cars which are 4 seaters which would be eliminated due to their also falling into the GT category. Cars that come to mind are the Porsche 911 , Ferrari 575 Maranello and Maserati Trofeo. As regards cars like the Capri and Mustang, I believe that these should be allowed. These were both based on production 4 seat saloons, the Capri on the Escort platform and the Mustang on the Falcon.
(If this thinking is followed through, maybe we should also limit the Historic Saloon class to cars of seating capacity of at least 4. This would not elinate any of the regularly raced cars in the class but would eliminate true 2-seat sports cars such as the MGB).
Steve
Re: Mod Prod
Re what I said before on cars like the Porsche 911, Ferrari 575 Maranello and Maserati Trofeo, what I meant was that these cars are already eliminated despite their being 4-seaters as they are considered GT cars.
Re: Mod Prod
Steve,
I like the idea of saying a four seater car. That will certainly eliminate some of the grey areas.
Gordon what are your thoughts on the four seater?
Arden
I like the idea of saying a four seater car. That will certainly eliminate some of the grey areas.
Gordon what are your thoughts on the four seater?
Arden
Re: Mod Prod
Arden, this is one of the things I mentioned in our conversation today - maybe allow only cars with back seats (four-seaters). Regarding Historic Saloon (which is really a bit off-topic here), back in the '60 and '70s where this class is based, we used to have Escorts, MGBs, Anglias, Lotus Elans, MG Sprites, Capris, Vivas, etc. all racing against one another right here at Wallerfield as they did throughout the Caribbean, the U.K. And Europe, so I would never agree to the back seat requirement for HS.