Fairways Racing Complex Forum

Notes on magnet downforce and the USD rule - Part 2

For the purpose of these remarks, our IROC, Open and Rally classes do not apply, so please ignore them. I'd like all of you to carefully read and think about what's written below and try to see the big picture rather than keep a closed mind on the points raised.

The way all our other classes are structured, magnet strength is a factor. As previously mentioned in my post "Notes on magnet downforce and the USD rule - Part 1", downforce has a bigger influence on lap times than any other component in our cars (assuming motors are of relatively equal specification in the class). So with two otherwise identally set-up cars but with different magnetic downforce, the one with greater downforce will lap quicker than the one with less downforce.

Now if the same components that make up these two cars are available to each owner, the only reasons why one will continually be quicker than the other would be:

• The tuning ability of one owner over the other.
• The driving ability of one driver over the other.

This is fair as the playing field is the same for both (all) competitors.

On the other hand, if there is a component that can significantly affect performance which is no longer available to all car owners because it is no longer manufactured, then those who have the discontinued part will have an advantage over those who don't. The playing field is no longer level. For those without access to this component, there would be little reason to run a car in said class as there would be virtually no chance of being competitive enough to win.

This is not a good thing.

So what can be done to level out the playing field again? Well the class rules must be changed in one of two ways:

A. Ban the discontinued component
or
B. Remove the advantage gained by the use of this component

There are a number of FRC classes that require standard magnets. Focusing on a particular one of these, tests and experience (mine and others) have determined that the original standard magnet that used to be shipped with a certain manufacturer's cars is significantly stronger than the new version that now ships with them. The stronger version has been out of production for some time now and is no longer available. Lucky are those few who have some of the older magnets and a pity for everyone else, including potential newcomers who need all the encouragement they can get. This is a perfect example of the point behind these notes. If we continue to allow these discontinued stronger magnets, we will eventually have a very small number of persons willing to take part in what is supposed to be a stock class with equal opportunity to all competitors.

To fix this I believe that we should either:

A. Ban the old-style magnet from the class
or
B. Change the class to incorporate the USD rule.

I would suggest we choose option B since it would not then matter what magnet is used, eliminating the supply problem. This is just a single example and I can point out others where a change in magnet to a weaker version by the manufacturer on their newer cars renders these newer models less competitive, simply because the classes require that standard magnets be used. Besides, we know that otherwise identical magnets can and often do have different strengths.

I would like to see ALL our non-IROC and non-Open magnet classes run with variations of the USD rule as this would allow for a wider range of cars being competitive. Look at what's happening of late: Historic Saloon is fast becoming a second American Muscle class as far as body types go; Vintage Sports can now be renamed "Formula Ford GT40"; most drivers look at our Group 5 Sports Car class as an Alfa 33/3 class.

In the interest of winning, we have lost focus on the historical aspect of what cars actually raced in these classes and we are unnecessarily eliminating a whole lot of potentially competitive slot car manufacturers and models. By using the USD rule, we will open our classes to more variety and with that, more interest in the races and the hobby.

And you know what? No specialised equipment is required - anyone can set up their cars to comply with this rule using a single piece of Scalextric Sport track at home. For the new drivers, we can explain the simple aspects of doing this.

I know that there will be arguments that many of these are stock classes. For these I have two questions and one comment: How many stock out-the-box slot cars can fail the USD rule? Which serious racer races a completely stock out-the-box car without some form of tuning? Our IROC cars are our "stock" cars for people to arrive and drive without having to tune them, all other classes require tuning to be competitive.

I have another two regulation suggestions, but those I'll leave for another post.

WOW GG !!!

That's really some heavy slotcar thoughts you have going through your mind and I cant imagine what else you can have to suggest here again ..!

I read through this part 2 topic in a thorough manner and feel if you think so strongly about all you wrote - that you as the head of FRC can safely go about putting into effect what is needed to achieve the levels of racing and different brand cars you would like to see ...

Luke

Luke, besides my feelings about this, do you understand what I'm saying? Do agree or disagree?

GG,

Of course I understand and don't think I have to settle or be unsettled about any changes you (may alone) choose to make at FRC because in the fullness of time and knowing you for the just person you are - cant see it being a problem.

Don't think I need to mention this but no matter what's done, there will always be someone who may disagree ... in other words you cannot please everyone.

Even if changes are made in whatever way you feel is for the best, we will all have to work with it and any required adjustments can be made afterwards.

Making sense here ..? Plus remembering you run things well at FRC

Luke

Gordon,

I have read this, but don't understand where it will take us.

I see it as IROC is the only option.

If a magnet was legal should it be illegal because it is unavailable?

I understand the idea, but based on engineering data you will never find any two magnets with the same characteristics ie weight and strength. We can find magnets that are alike and the down force are very different. We can also find magnets that are small in size and have greater down force than larger magnets.

Magnets also loses and gains down force.

If we are looking at this we are really speaking about down force. Size and design is a different matter.

You spoke about motors and likewise no two motors are the same based on the magnets strength.
I will say the motors should be checked in all cars and cars out of specification should be banned. This is better because we can all gauge a car down force on a track and change a magnet to get more down force.

I think we are over thinking the rules.

Next we will be banning a car since it is unavailable.

Sorry, but I believe that once the magnet was considered stock or like design it is fine.
Slot car Manufacturers do not make magnets and no two exact cars come with the same down force.

Arden

arden100 wrote:Gordon,

I have read this, but don't understand where it will take us.

All it is doing is giving more cars an opportunity to be competitive in our various classes. If this can be achieved it will take us forward.

arden100 wrote:I see it as IROC is the only option.

Why? All I'm suggesting is that the magnetic variations between cars be narrowed. Does this make you not want to race other than in IROC classes? Don't you enjoy preparing your own cars for their classes?

arden100 wrote:If a magnet was legal should it be illegal because it is unavailable?

No, which is why I am suggesting the USD rule. Then you can use any magnets - discontinued or not - in your cars. All you'll need to do is ensure that the car drops of the upside-down track. Everything else will remain for the class rules (unless we want to change something else for a particular class).

arden100 wrote:I understand the idea, but based on engineering data you will never find any two magnets with the same characteristics ie weight and strength. We can find magnets that are alike and the down force are very different. We can also find magnets that are small in size and have greater down force than larger magnets.

Magnets also loses and gains down force.

If we are looking at this we are really speaking about down force. Size and design is a different matter.

My point exactly. I'm glad you agree with this. Do you have a better idea of how to reduce magnetic variations other than using the USD rule?

arden100 wrote:You spoke about motors and likewise no two motors are the same based on the magnets strength.
I will say the motors should be checked in all cars and cars out of specification should be banned. This is better because we can all gauge a car down force on a track and change a magnet to get more down force.

We should always be checking that motors comply, but that's another topic.

arden100 wrote:I think we are over thinking the rules.

This is one simple suggestion for a big problem. I believe it needs some thought for solving the problem.

arden100 wrote:Next we will be banning a car since it is unavailable.

Cars qualify for our classes based on their body type and their mechanical/electronic make-up and through the methods we use to check these. As long as a car passes these, why would we ban it?

arden100 wrote:Sorry, but I believe that once the magnet was considered stock or like design it is fine.

Arden, this comment makes me wonder if you read what this whole thing is about. The idea that every slot cars' stock magnet downforce is the same is laughable. Using these words "stock magnet in the stock position" to classify cars is like saying some people have to race with 18K motors and others with 30K motors, all in the same class. Its not fair and it is not right.

arden100 wrote:Slot car Manufacturers do not make magnets and no two exact cars come with the same down force.

Arden

Once again, my point exactly.

Gordon,

This is where all my points were referring to in my response.


So what can be done to level out the playing field again? Well the class rules must be changed in one of two ways:

A. Ban the discontinued component
or
B. Remove the advantage gained by the use of this component

There are a number of FRC classes that require standard magnets. Focusing on a particular one of these, tests and experience (mine and others) have determined that the original standard magnet that used to be shipped with a certain manufacturer's cars is significantly stronger than the new version that now ships with them. The stronger version has been out of production for some time now and is no longer available. Lucky are those few who have some of the older magnets and a pity for everyone else, including potential newcomers who need all the encouragement they can get. This is a perfect example of the point behind these notes. If we continue to allow these discontinued stronger magnets, we will eventually have a very small number of persons willing to take part in what is supposed to be a stock class with equal opportunity to all competitors.


Magnets are standard and as we all know down force varies, however you have a 1mm rule which was introduced about a year ago. This was to eliminate the very same thing you are concerned about today.
The UDR really is not the solution in my mind, sorry to say. All cars have added weight so to me that really does not say the UDR is working vs Down Force. The only way is Magnet Marshall.

The 1mm rule I believe is the best way unless you remove the weight from the cars and use the UDR. Here goes magnet less racing. LOL.
Steve your wish coming true. Its Christmas. LOL

Arden